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Strikeforce's womens 145 division is called Middleweight, and 135 is Welterweight, not Featherwight and Bantamweight

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http://www.strikeforce.com/fighters/

CRISTIANE SANTOS - WOMEN'S MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION NICKNAME: CYBORG FIGHTING OUT OF: CHUTE BOXE ACADEMY - BRAZIL HEIGHT: 5 FT 8 IN WEIGHT: 145 LBS AGE: 24 RECORD: 10-1

SARAH KAUFMAN - WOMEN'S WELTERWEIGHT CHAMPION FIGHTING OUT OF: ZUMA MARTIAL ARTS - VICTORIA, CANADA HEIGHT: 5 FT 5 IN WEIGHT: 135 LBS AGE: 24 RECORD: 11-0 Delinquent1904 (talk) 00:14, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's why they are named different.Strikeforce refers to the Women's 145-pound weight class as Middleweight and the 135-pound weight class as Welterweight. However, the weight classes listed here conform to the weight classes in the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts. [url=http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html]

As mentioned on Sarah Kaufman's discussion page, there is no reason to refer to the titles as Bantamweight and Featherweight on Wikipedia. Numerous promotions use naming formats that do not conform to the Unified Rules and all of those other promotions - Shooto, for example - have their titles correctly named here on Wikipedia. Cristiane Santos's title is the Strikeforce Women's Middleweight Championship. It is not the Featherweight Championship. By renaming it here, we are creating inaccurate articles and going directly against the goal of Wikipedia in compiling the most accurate article content possible. Reverting to Featherweight does nothing because other users will (rightfully) continue to switch it back to Middleweight. It is the Middleweight Championship and should be referred to as such. FemaleMMAFan (talk) 05:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Either than Shooto- most promotions are going towards the Unified Rules- such as what DREAM is currently doing. Shooto is the notable except mainly because of its history- its been around since the 1980s and only has recently started modernizing itself. It was the decision of the WP:MMA to name it after the Unified Rules. Nonetheless- Strikeforce went through three or four different names for its women's championships. If we all start calling it Middleweight now, we should also note on all the relevant pages that the title was originally the Women's Lightweight title and the Bantamweight title (135 lbs) which is now named the Welterweight title was originally called the Featherweight title by Strikeforce.(Justinsane15 (talk) 06:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Yes, that's a fair point and it's already noted as such on the page for Gina Carano. You can use that same link that's there for other pages for the 145-pound division, but that citation doesn't apply to 135. I can find others that do, if need be. Basically, the decision to rename a title here makes no sense and that's why so many users keep reverting the changes to the official names. It's better just to stick with what the promotion names them because it results in less/no confusion. FemaleMMAFan (talk) 07:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cris Cyborg redirect

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I think a search for "Cris Cyborg" should redirect to this article. She is often referred to by that name instead of her full given name. Ryziun (talk) 19:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've created the redirect. I'm also thinking the article itself should be moved there per WP:COMMONNAME. Input welcome. --aktsu (t / c) 14:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image

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Does the image on this article meet the standards of WP? Just wondering because it is not a personal picture.(MgTurtle (talk) 23:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

Stripped of Strikeforce Title

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By her most recent fight, it says she was stripped of the title after testing positive for steroids. The reports I've seen did not say she was stripped of the title, unsigned comment added by Feif (talk • contribs) 18:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

She was stripped: http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/01/07/dana-white-cris-cyborg-stripped-of-title-future-of-division-in

Taevan (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:24, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Justino

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Can someone who knows how to do it change the name of the article from Santos to Justino? Taevan (talk) Agreed. She dropped her married name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.14.74 (talk) 06:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doping

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Apparently she's been found guilty of using growth hormone. See for instance: http://www.mmaweekly.com/cris-cyborg-santos-tests-positive-for-steroids . This is definitely something that should be mentioned in the article about her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.74.4.87 (talk) 16:57, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 July 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Cris Cyborg. No such user (talk) 13:13, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Cristiane Justino → Cris Cyborg – Someone stated 8 years ago that they thought the article should be moved to Cris Cyborg per WP:COMMONNAME, but nothing ever came of it. I'm just trying to see what the consensus is. I've done a little looking, and found that her website is www.CrisCyborg.com [1], and it seems that most articles refer to her as Cyborg, but not all. Also, The UFC website refers to her as Cris Cyborg [2] [3], so I support this as nom. Evertonfc13 (talk) 13:14, 28 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for two different reasons. One is that lots of the information on MMA pages is based on Sherdog's information, and on there, she is referred to by her full name, "Cristiane Justino", in her profile and in fight records. Another reason is that although she goes by Cris Cyborg, she also goes by Cyborg often times as well, so you'd just be picking one over the other, whereas with her current page name, it's her actual name, so there's no confusion there. I think having a redirect from Cris Cyborg, which we already have, is sufficient. TBMNY (talk) 06:01, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support She, her marketing team, her promotion and that promotion's broadcasters (American, British and Canadian) are all aboard with Cris Cyborg. These six reach a lot further than Sherdog does (not that Sherdog doesn't also call her this), so they reasonably determine the common name. Now that she has the belt, she's essentially Hulk Hogan, and like "Bollea", only hardcore fans want to remember how to pronounce "Cristiane". InedibleHulk (talk) 06:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If Mirko Cro Cop's page uses his real name of Mirko Filipović, I don't see why this page shouldn't do the same. Seems inconsistent to change the name of the page.BEDofRAZORS666 (talk) 13:58, July 31, 2017 (EST)
@BEDofRAZORS666: There is also a requested move to move that page to Mirko Cro Cop which has unanimous support as of this moment. Also, the existance of another article should not have any influence on this article. Evertonfc13 (talk) 19:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

GOAT - content dispute

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CLOSED
Rough consensus was reached regarding the wording about GOAT status, thus closing the discussion. Ticelon (talk) 16:07, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:CA3D:DCFF:FE71:E371 and 136.49.166.71: Thank you for brining this issues to my attention on my talk page. First of all, please both of you have engaging in WP:Edit Warring where by both of you disagreed with the content claimed and you both have revert more than 3 times within 24 hours in the same article for such both of you have violated Wikipedia WP:3RR guidelines. Both of you need to "STOP" reverting and editing anything on the article "IMMEDIATE" and discuss the issue on the article talk page. I have place a 3RR warning on your page but I would not report you as I believe both of you do not know/familiar with 3RR guiltiness in Wikipedia since both of you are new editors.

There are at times some fighters would be the GOAT according to different sources such as men heavyweight class in mma as those sources might have slightly different GOAT criterion. We could place "XXX is one of the GOAT....." if many independence, reliable sources have stated that. (note: independent (no related/associate/link to the subject) and reliable - fact checking, reputable such as newspapers). I could not check on the sources in the article at the moment as only some major websites I could access at the moment due to some heavy rain on my area yesterday. For such I cannot comment on the sources at this point, but I will come back to this message to give my 2cent when my service provide could provide full service My internet provider has fixed the problem and I was able to check 7 existing sources and they are considered independent, reliable source. However, it does not indicated Cyborg is the GOAT but "one of the GOAT". So the in the WP:LEAD section/introduction section, it should not indicate "Cyborg is widely regarded as the greatest female mixed martial artist of all time" but "Cyborg is widely regarded as one the greatest female mixed martial artist of all time"

Both of you can continue to discuss the issue here if you wish and pls be WP:CIVIL and comment on the content and not the editor. Do remember to ping the other party in here and write a message in their talk page since both of you are IP users, and no notification will be generated from ping command in Wikipedia. To ping, pls follow the instruction at Template:Ping. Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~). Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia(talk) 01:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@136.49.166.71: I agree with Cassiopeia. I already removed the sources which were unreliable/biased, the sources which are up as of now are either outdated by a few years or call Cyborg one of the greatest/arguably the greatest, not the greatest. For that reason I think it would be best to a) remove the outdated sources as they are no longer relevant after Cyborg's loss to Nunes & Nunes' rise in the GOAT discussion in the past few years, and b) reformulate the sentence as Cassiopeia suggested to accurately reflect what the sources used are actually saying. What's your opinion ? Hope we can come to an agreement on this, I will be waiting for your response. 2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:CA3D:DCFF:FE71:E371 (talk) 09:25, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@136.49.166.71: You haven't responded, so I'm gonna assume you don't have anything more to say and I'm gonna edit the article as it was agreed upon here between both me & Cassiopeia. If you want to disagree, please respond in here first instead of immediately reverting the article, we can discuss about it. 2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:3911:6B69:88BF:518D (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:3911:6B69:88BF:518D: Hi, pls let the discussion run for a week as norm, and if the involved editor does not respond then you could edit the page as per above suggestion. Thank you. Cassiopeia(talk) 08:48, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:3911:6B69:88BF:518D: fight matrix is credible, the points that you earn jump based off of TITLE FIGHTS, regular fights, get normal bonuses. Weili Zhang is surpassed by the people you mentioned, because in her 20+ fight career, She's only been in 6 title fights, and 2 are with the UFC. Holly Holm, has only won ONE title fight, which was against Rousey, Cyborg has been in 14 title fights, while going undefeated for over 13 years, winning 13 of those title fights as well. Nunes has been in 8 title fights in her entire career as well. Fight matrix does everyone's metrics the same. Just like it has Jon Jones listed at the GOAT (which i completely agree with), others may not. Because you don't agree with the listing, does not make it incorrect/biased. Also if you have such an issue with "fight matrix" take it off of Khabib's page as well. It's sited there "Fight Matrix has Khabib listed as the greatest Lightweight fighter of all time."
Also most "sites" are a personal blog. You have someone who personally states their opinion on things, and places it on a form. Because the UFC states their champion is the GOAT, does not make it so. They were also calling Cyborg the GOAT for years, UFC changes their minds on who is what. It's a personal preference. But for well over a decade, Cyborg has been called the Greatest Female fighter of all time. Nunes has barely been called it for 2 years. And ONLY because She beat Cyborg and refused to rematch her. Nobody called Nunes anything before that win over Cyborg, which shows you how heavily Cyborg was looked at when it comes to the GOAT conversation.
If we're going based off of stats. Yes Cyborg is by far and ahead the GOAT. As I stated before, She was undefeated for 13+ years, because She finally lost. Does not mean Her accomplishments leave with her. Sounds like you jump on the new bandwagon of the hottest thing going on, rather than what someone accomplishes. Achievements, and accomplishments do not go away with one loss. If things went that way, Cat Zingano, Alexis Davis and others would be known as the GOAT, because they easily beat Nunes.
Cyborg was undefeated for over 13 years, facing and beating everyone put in front of her. Because one person finally beat her, does not take away everything She accomplished. That's like saying that you believe that Weidman or Hall are greater than Silva, because they beat him, taking away his legacy. Or that Matt Serra is better than GSP. One loss does not take away everything you earned.
Nunes has been unbeaten for (approaching) 6 years. Cyborg was undefeated for double that time. And that's Nunes only having 11 fights within those 6 years. Cyborg had 21 fights, in those 13 years, and is unbeaten now in bellator where she is he reigning champ there, also She is the first and only Grand slam champion in MMA history, Male or Female.
Losing one fight does not take away all you've done. Or else we'd be calling Joe Frazier the Greatest Boxer of all time for beating Ali. This is why rematches are necessary and end all doubt. They fought 3 times, Ali won 2 lost 1. Proving He was better.
Nunes stated it herself, She did not want to fight Cyborg again, and would make her wait 2 years, or would retire. She did not want a rematch against Cyborg. While Cyborg asked for the rematch endlessly until She left the company. Even wanting a cross-over fight Bellator vs UFC, Nunes wants nothing to do with Cyborg.
Cyborg's legacy stays intact.
Also If you would actually look through those articles, they do call her the GOAT. except the 'DAZN' one does call her "ONE of the greatest." You allow sites to have "betting odds." for certain people to call others goats? You allow Other promotions presidents and employees to call someone a goat, but that's acceptable? But this one does it and it isn't allowed?
And when someone says "arguably" (they say that a lot) They're implying that other's MAY have a claim, but that; THAT person is their pick.136.49.166.71 (talk) 01:28, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@136.49.166.71:, Please note the fight matrix has yet to be used as the ranking in Wikipedia MMA guidelines which is in the process to get it pass. So we would not include fight matrix in this discussion until such time is it part of the guidelines. Secondly the sources on how the subject is view will the key here as this is Wikipedia. The sources are independent, reliable source and some do indicate "arguably" the female GOAT in MMA so, it is not unanimous stating she is the GOAT. If we look at Sherdog.com Women P4P and even we include Fightmetric and Tapology just for the discussion both indicate Nunes - see Sherdog and here fitghmatrix and here Tapology. There are also claimed that Nunes is the GOAT - see [4], [5] and here. So GOAT status could change over time. So I would say Cyborg is one of the GOAT but not the GOAT at this state. Cassiopeia(talk) 02:20, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassiopeia:, So I can remove the "fight matrix" from Khabib's page? Since it's proudly presented there. "Fight matrix has Khabib listed as the greatest lightweight of all time." And they have her listed as the p4p best in the world today, not all time. P4P does not equate to GOAT. It means right now they are the best in the world, which is subject to change. Demetrious Johnson at one point was the p4p best in the world, same with Jose ALdo, would you ever dare to try to put them above Jon Jones in the GOAT discussion? P4P is a current day metric, not an ALL TIME metric. It's cool to know someone's legacy is completely up for grabs, undefeated for 13+ years, never lost a round, beat down everyone, but ONE loss, takes away her legacy? That's cool to know. See [6] See [7] Like I stated, for over a decade Cyborg was listed as the GOAT. So for a couple of years someone else gets named and we just take it away? Fact is you should leave it as both, even though personally Nunes's legacy is nothing compared to Cyborg's, but since it's so subjective, and clueless people jump on bandwagon's rather than actually look up facts; it's funny one has double the loses of the other as well, which is Nunes. Cyborg has lost twice. Nunes 4. But Let's pretend She's the GOAT, because She beat the actual GOAT and wouldn't rematch her. So we gonna go change Chris Weidman's page too? List him as the Greatest Middleweight and One of the Greatest as well? Oh how about Uriah Hall? I mean they both Beat Silva, who at one point was called the Greatest of all time. See how silly that is? We're really having a discussion about someone who is on an 11 fight win streak over barely 6 years unbeaten. Vs Someone who was on a 13 year+ streak, winning 21 fights during that time... 14 fights being title fights, while Nunes is at just 8.... This is funny.. 136.49.166.71 (talk) 02:59, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@136.49.166.71:, Thank you for your message. I do understand the diff between P4P and GOAT. My links above just to illustrate no only there are sources indicated Nunes is the current female GOAT but also #1 women P4P as well. First of all is not up to us to think who is P4P or GOAT here (we can do that outside Wikipedia such as in any social media sites) but we have to adhere to Wikipedia guidelines of veribility for this is Wikipedia. How GOAT is defined by sources is something we might not know, some sources would consider BONES cant not be the men GOAT since he was officially taken banned substances twice as of if you take banned substances you are out of the conversation for GOAT. Other sources might look into who were the fighters they said GOAT faced, are those fighters are always in world top ranked 1-10? and how do they compare the pre 2000 fighters' skills to that of modern era fighters, since now we know more techniques, help of fitness equipment, and USADA testing is in place among other things. The sources/media could be bias or based on different criterion or etc. would not be known (unelss the source specified that and still it is very subjective at times) but we state what the independent, reliable media said. The living biographies articles are live article which means the status of the subject might change. Same as the "Common" name of the subject for the article page. We all know Cris Cyborg is not her real name but it is the most common name stated by the media, for such we use Cris Cyborg for the article name, and if in the future, some how media uses her real name to report things about her, and if the frequency is high, then the page name would change to her real name. GOAT is forever a discussion topics and most of the time, there is no unanimous decisions by the media, and if so, the period would be subjective to a short period of time (months to years), until next fighters enter the discussion of GOAT and then the discussion start again. Since there are recent sources indicate Nunes is the current female GOAT and there are still sources stating Cyborg is, the appropriate statement would be "Cris is one of the GOAT" instead of she is the GOAT. Cassiopeia(talk) 03:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassiopeia:, hmmm, That's one of the most well-put... logical responses I've seen in quite some time.. Especially regarding this. I digress about the Jones situation, since it was proven he did not intentionally cheat, and He proved his innocence with each time. As far as this goes. You did state "Since there are recent sources indicate Nunes is the current female GOAT and there are still sources stating Cyborg is..." I think the fairest way to go about this, would be to change both pages to "one of the greatest female mixed martial artists." Since as you stated, there's articles that state both are the Female GOAT. Recency bias or not, I believe that would be fair with this topic, personally. Since as you stated, there's no Unanimous GOAT as of right now.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.49.166.71 (talk) 14:43, February 28, 2021 (UTC)
@2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:CA3D:DCFF:FE71:E371 and 136.49.166.71: Thank you for understanding and participation on the discussion. And all of us have agreed to state Cyborg as "one of the female GOAT" instead of "the female GOAT". The normal process for discussion to be closed without further discussion is 7 days; however, since we have reached a unanimous agreeable decision, "one of the female GOAT" statement would be change but let keep this discussion open for next 24 hours for user 2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:CA3D:DCFF:FE71:E371 is in different time zone than user 136.49.166.71, and might not be online to check this message. Once again thank you all involved parties participate in this discussion. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia(talk) 03:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassiopeia:, Eh I'll edit both articles myself. It's fine to close the discussion now.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.49.166.71 (talk) 15:09, February 28, 2021 (UTC)
@Cassiopeia and 136.49.166.71: No, it's not fine, I also want to have the chance to state my opinion just like you had. If I had to wait for your response for more than a day, then the least you could do is wait a few hours for me to respond when it's not nighttime in my timezone. Anyway, I agree with what was already said by Cassiopeia; we are not here to argue about who is the GOAT in our personal opinion, Wikipedia should adhere to what the (reliable and independent) sources say. That's why I don't understand why did you suddenly decided to bring up Nunes in the discussion and act her article has the same issues as Cyborg's ? When you look at the sources that reference the statement that she's "widely regarded as the greatest female MMA fighter of all time", the sources actually flat out do state that. They very explicitly call her THE greatest female MMA fighter. All of them are also recent sources from 2020 or 2019. There's no reason there whatsoever to reformulate the sentence in the article which calls her the greatest. In Cyborg's case, all of the recent sources call her "one of the greatest" or "arguably the greatest", hence why calling her the greatest in her article is not appropriate nor accurate. So I'm gonna go ahead and edit the Nunes article back to its original form, since the subject of this discussion is Cyborg and not Nunes and therefore I don't see a reason to wait with the edits. 2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:4D23:29BB:66AB:583C (talk) 11:39, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:CA3D:DCFF:FE71:E371 and 136.49.166.71: Hi 2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:4D23:29BB:66AB:583C, I didnt edit the content of Nunes page but revert the source of the title as per source - see from here and my revert to here and this is the source. As for Cyborg page, I believe we have already reached an agreement on "one of the greatest" by all parties here. User 136.49.166.71, as for Nunes cases, if you have any issues with the GOAT then pls bring the discussion to Nunes talk page and both parties pls stop editing the page until an agreement is reached. Also pls please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~). Thank you. Cassiopeia(talk) 15:20, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassiopeia: I was talking about this edit 136.49.166.71 made. I edited it back to its original formulation here and, wouldn't you believe it, it was again reverted back by 136.49.166.71 without absolutely any explanation whatsoever. I'm gonna be honest, I feel extremely frustrated by this because it's literally like trying to talk to a brick wall when I type out a whole paragraph explaining my position on something and try to appropriately justify the edit and the other user just goes ahead and changes it the way he wants anyway without any repercussions. I'm new to Wikipedia and I'm not really sure how am I supposed to react to that without engaging in edit warring or bothering other editors with the issue. Doesn't feel like there's any point in trying to reason about anything when the editor in question obviously refuses to engage in any kind of discussion with me and just does whatever he/she wants. 2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:4D23:29BB:66AB:583C (talk) 16:45, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
::@2A02:AB04:2F43:5000:CA3D:DCFF:FE71:E371 and 136.49.166.71: Nunes page is back to original stage. User 136.49.166.71, if you disagree with the content, pls open a discussion at the talk page. Thank you. Cassiopeia(talk) 21:10, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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